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DrivePool and SSD combinations


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Hello together,

I just optimized my Drivepool a bit and set a 128 GB SSD as write cache. I had another SSD with 1GB I had left I put into the pool and set drivepool to write only folders on it which I use most and should be fast available. This folders have also a duplication (the other Archive drives are HDDs). I'm not sure if this is working or the SSD is useless for more speed.

How is drivepool working:

- does drivepool read both the original und the duplicated folders if I use them from the Client?

- will drive pool recognize which drive is faster and read from this first?

best regards and thanks for your answers

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Thanks for your answers.

This are the answers from t he costumer service. I post them here because others may have the same questions an will find this answers helpfull too:

question 1:
Is the duplication working with having one SSD-drive set for cache. Is DrivePool writing the files to the cache SSD-drive and a duplication to the HDDs in the Archive?
answer:
Yes, but if you have duplication enabled, and don't have two SSDs, then yeah, it's falling back to using one of the HDDs.

question 2:
How is the reading of this files, is DrivePool reading the files on the cache SSD-drive first if they are still there or will the duplication on the HDD slow it down?
answer:
if the files are duplicated, then it has a number of checks to optimize the reads, if read striping is enabled. 
You can read about this here: https://stablebit.com/Support/DrivePool/2.X/Manual?Section=Performance Options#Read Striping

question 3:
Would it be better to have two SSD enabled in the SSD Optimizer as SSDs to get for the files which are actually in the cach the duplication in the cache too, would this work?
answer:
Yes.  Ideally. 

question 4:
If I use two SSDs in the cache how do I set them? Together in a subpool? Or adding them simple to the main pool and set them both as SSD?
answer:
Just add both to the pool, and enable them as "ssd"s in the SSD Optimizer balancers.

question 5:
Would it maybe a better solution to get one SSD in the pool and not enable it as SSD-drive in the "SSD Optimizer" to use it as archive with file placement rules for my most used files?
answer:
Honestly, either works, but it depends on what you want in your setup.  

question 6:
If I try it like in 5. how is it with the duplication would DrivePool read the files from the fast SSD or the slower HDD? Maybe the slow HDD makes the SSD slow too?
answer:
It should generally use the SSD, unless it's busy, basically. 

 

The nice think is DrivePool is working how I thought it should be working :-)

I ordered now another 1 TB SSD and will set both of my 1TB SSD in the optimizer as SSD. For my enabled duplication that should work best like the answer in question 3 says this is ideally. I will double my RAM to 16 GB too and keep my old CPU ans Mainboard.

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2 hours ago, Saphir said:

How is drivepool working:

- does drivepool read both the original und the duplicated folders?

DrivePool has a feature called Read Striping, which you can turn on. If the folder is duplicated, DrivePool will read from both drives and that can speed up the read task. If you expand the performance tab, you can see both drives that DrivePool is reading from and the speed at which it is reading. You can almost double the read speed in some transfers.

2 hours ago, Saphir said:

- will drive pool recognize which drive is faster and read from this first?

What I see on my system is that DrivePool will read from both my SSD and an archive HDD at the same time, but since the SSD is just so much faster, most of the read data comes from the SSD. I don't know if DrivePool is specifically programmed to recognize the faster drive and use that pipeline first, but in effect that is what I see happening on my system. My read speed, with Read Striping turned on, in those cases is almost exactly the same as the read speed on my SSD.

FYI, I only have 1 SSD, so I do not know if DrivePool would Read Strip both of your SSDs and almost double your read speed from the SSDs. Also, in my case, the bottleneck on my transfers is not the DrivePool read speeds, it is the speed of which I can transfer the data over my home network ethernet, the wifi, or to maybe a destination USB HDD. In most of my cases, transfers on my system are slowed down by lots of things but DrivePool is not one of them.

 

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2 hours ago, Saphir said:

I'm not sure if this is working or the SSD is useless for more speed.

The SSD write cache did increase speed on my system, but it depends on my file transfer scenario. If I am transferring files directly from my server's drive into DrivePool on that same server, I see my maximum speed of the SSD (about 480 MB/s). If I am transferring files over my home network ethernet (about 30 MB/s), or wifi (? MB/s), or from an attached USB HDD (about 80 MB/s), then even my DrivePool archive HDDs are fast enough to keep up with the transfer. 

I have set aside 100 GB of my 228 GB SSD as my DrivePool write cache and also use that as a cache for my working temp folders. In that way, the 100 GB SSD cache not only works for DrivePool writes, but also as my system cache for both reads/writes for my temp working folders. In those cases, the SSD cache read/writes at about 480 MB/s whereas just my DrivePool archive HDDs would max out around 80-100 MB/s. So, yes, the SSD can significantly increase your speeds, but it all depends on your specific setup.

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Hi gtaus,

thanks for sharing your expirience.

1 hour ago, gtaus said:

DrivePool has a feature called Read Striping, which you can turn on. If the folder is duplicated, DrivePool will read from both drives and that can speed up the read task. If you expand the performance tab, you can see both drives that DrivePool is reading from and the speed at which it is reading. You can almost double the read speed in some transfers.

Read Striping is turned on thanks for the hint I checked it.

1 hour ago, gtaus said:

What I see on my system is that DrivePool will read from both my SSD and an archive HDD at the same time, but since the SSD is just so much faster, most of the read data comes from the SSD. I don't know if DrivePool is specifically programmed to recognize the faster drive and use that pipeline first, but in effect that is what I see happening on my system. My read speed, with Read Striping turned on, in those cases is almost exactly the same as the read speed on my SSD.

That sounds great. I was assuming it but was not shure about it. If it works in your case it will work for me too and I leave the Archive SSD in the Pool.

1 hour ago, gtaus said:

FYI, I only have 1 SSD, so I do not know if DrivePool would Read Strip both of your SSDs and almost double your read speed from the SSDs. Also, in my case, the bottleneck on my transfers is not the DrivePool read speeds, it is the speed of which I can transfer the data over my home network ethernet, the wifi, or to maybe a destination USB HDD. In most of my cases, transfers on my system are slowed down by lots of things but DrivePool is not one of them.

I have only 1 SSD for Archive files, the othere is the writing cache. Striping would not work in this case. Would be interesting to have the douple speed of an SSD but I really thing there are to many bottlenecks to use this speed how you told. I only put this Archive SSD in the Pool because it's from my old Desktop which I don't use anymore and for writing cache I thought 1 TB is to big. If it speeds up a little bit it's a nice to have. Actually the OS is on an third SSD too.
1. SSD = Archive
2. SSD = writing cache
3. SSD = OS

1 hour ago, gtaus said:

The SSD write cache did increase speed on my system, but it depends on my file transfer scenario. If I am transferring files directly from my server's drive into DrivePool on that same server, I see my maximum speed of the SSD (about 480 MB/s). If I am transferring files over my home network ethernet (about 30 MB/s), or wifi (? MB/s), or from an attached USB HDD (about 80 MB/s), then even my DrivePool archive HDDs are fast enough to keep up with the transfer.

Do you have Gigabit ethernet? You're completely right, it depends on how I use the data to get the possible speed.

1 hour ago, gtaus said:

I have set aside 100 GB of my 228 GB SSD as my DrivePool write cache and also use that as a cache for my working temp folders. In that way, the 100 GB SSD cache not only works for DrivePool writes, but also as my system cache for both reads/writes for my temp working folders. In those cases, the SSD cache read/writes at about 480 MB/s whereas just my DrivePool archive HDDs would max out around 80-100 MB/s. So, yes, the SSD can significantly increase your speeds, but it all depends on your specific setup.

Is this the writing cache I enabled for my writing cache SSD? It said everything is writen first to that SSD and than sorted to the Archiv Disks or did you set something different too?

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5 hours ago, Saphir said:

Do you have Gigabit ethernet?

Yes, I do have Gigabit ethernet. But my maximum transfer speed over the gigabit ethernet never approaches the theoretical limit of the Gigabit design. I just stated my real world transfer rates that I see on my system. Again, if you have a USB HDD attached to a laptop computer transferring data to your DrivePool server, then the bottleneck is probably the USB HDD on that laptop. So many things slow down your system. Point is, DrivePool itself has never been my bottleneck.

5 hours ago, Saphir said:

Is this the writing cache I enabled for my writing cache SSD? It said everything is writen first to that SSD and than sorted to the Archiv Disks or did you set something different too?

In DrivePool, I set my SSD cache not to flush until it reaches 100 GB. All files written to DrivePool will first go to the SSD cache, and then when it hits that 100 GB limit, it will start to flush the data to the archive HDDs in DrivePool. For my temp folders directed to DrivePool, it will use that 100 GB to both read and write as the data is still on the SSD and has not flushed yet to the archive HDDs. Since my server's main drive is a standard 7200 rpm HDD (about 100 MB/s), the SSD I set up for use in DrivePool is much faster at about 480 MB/s.

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I think I will have soon a looke to the speeds in my network too.

11 hours ago, gtaus said:

In DrivePool, I set my SSD cache not to flush until it reaches 100 GB. All files written to DrivePool will first go to the SSD cache, and then when it hits that 100 GB limit, it will start to flush the data to the archive HDDs in DrivePool. For my temp folders directed to DrivePool, it will use that 100 GB to both read and write as the data is still on the SSD and has not flushed yet to the archive HDDs. Since my server's main drive is a standard 7200 rpm HDD (about 100 MB/s), the SSD I set up for use in DrivePool is much faster at about 480 MB/s.

How did you do that? I use the "SSD Optimizer" Plugin but I can only set how much the SSD can be filled, not at which point it will be emptied to the archiv. What do you mean with temp folders directed to the Pool?

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5 hours ago, Saphir said:

How did you do that? I use the "SSD Optimizer" Plugin but I can only set how much the SSD can be filled, not at which point it will be emptied to the archiv.

Go to Manage Pool>Balancing>Settings>Automatic balancing - Triggers>check the box "Or if at least this much data needs to be moved:">set the trigger point to 100 GB.

Mind you, I have a 228 GB SSD, so 100 GB is just under half usage. From what I have read, you want to keep your usage under 80% of the SSD or you risk wearing out the SSD prematurely as it will continue to use the same sectors over and over at the end of its available space as the drive fills up.

5 hours ago, Saphir said:

What do you mean with temp folders directed to the Pool?

I have some programs that require temp working directories, like for video editing. I just made a Temp directory in my DrivePool and tell the programs to use that DrivePool J:\Temp directory. Nothing more complicated that that.

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18 hours ago, gtaus said:

Go to Manage Pool>Balancing>Settings>Automatic balancing - Triggers>check the box "Or if at least this much data needs to be moved:">set the trigger point to 100 GB.

Mind you, I have a 228 GB SSD, so 100 GB is just under half usage. From what I have read, you want to keep your usage under 80% of the SSD or you risk wearing out the SSD prematurely as it will continue to use the same sectors over and over at the end of its available space as the drive fills up.

Thanks! I had this allready set to 100 GB but because of your answer I set it a bit lower and changed the setting above so that ist works. If I use the SSD like this maybe I should use my 1 TB SSD für the Cache and not the small 128 GB one.

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Because my main computer drive is an older 7200 RPM HDD, the SSD Optimizer plugin for DrivePool is a really nice option for me. I think you too will see the advantage to adding a SSD write cache to your DrivePool, but if your main drive on your computer is already a SSD, there is probably not much benefit to you by directing your temp working files to DrivePool. At least you seem to have a good idea now of what might work best for you. Take care.

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I have a question to your settings for the Cache SSD because I don't see that there is anything written on it. Did you allow the file placement to write on the cache SSD? I'm not sure how exactly that function works. If I enable it than DrivePool knows to use it as cache only because the SSD Optimizer Plugin says it or will it place Archive files than to it.

The Idea is what I read from you. All written data should be go to the cache SSD and if a specific amount of date has to be balanced (600 GB in my case) it should be go from the cache SSD to the archive HDDs. I hope from this that my most used files stay for a long time on the fast cache.

20210304_001.JPG

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5 hours ago, Saphir said:

The Idea is what I read from you. All written data should be go to the cache SSD and if a specific amount of date has to be balanced (600 GB in my case) it should be go from the cache SSD to the archive HDDs. I hope from this that my most used files stay for a long time on the fast cache.

I don't think the SSD Optimizer works that way. When it hits the trigger point and flushes data, it appears to flush all the data in the cache. There is nothing left in the cache after the flush. 

I think there are some SSDs with learning software that will keep your most used programs/data on the SSD. Those are typically system SSDs. The DrivePool SSD Optimizer is not designed for keeping your most used files on the SSD. However, DrivePool can use your SSD as both a pool drive and a system drive. You could simply install the programs and/or put those files you use most often directly on the SSD and not as part of DrivePool.

For example, my DrivePool SSD is drive Z:. I can install, store, or locate any files I want on my Z: drive as normal, or I can also use that SSD in DrivePool which adds the hidden DrivePool PoolPart directory on my Z: drive.

One of the big advantages to DrivePool over other systems such as RAID or Windows Storage Spaces is that you are able to add and use an existing drive to DrivePool and, at the same time, also use that drive normally on your system. My older RAID and Storage Spaces took full control over my drives and those pool drives could not be used for anything else.

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Hmm I see  I mixed my questions about Archive SSD and Cache SSD :-(

Maybe I wrote it not good enough. That the Cache is completely emptied, that's how I understand drivepool is working. Thge probelm now is that both SSD Archive and Cache are staying empty:

For the Archive SSD I set the folder placement for only a few folders but they are not placed to the Archice SSD.

Maybe it has a completly other reason because the SSDs are empty: Duplication. If I have enabled the duplication and have only 1 SSD as cache is that working? I thought DrivePool is moving the duplikated files to the archiv and let the main files in the cache till it is emptied. Maybe I'm wrong and I need two SSD in the cache. Maybe the Archive SSD has the same problem and can't make a dublication on an Archive HDD but this would be strange.

In the screenshot *003 the both last drives are my SSDs. The Daten-6 is my Archive SSD.

I read a lot now in the Forum and I have the feeling I should do this:

- add another 1 TB SSD in my Server
- remove the cache SSD from my pool
- create a pool of both SSDs
- add the new poot to the existing pool
- mark the subpool as SSD in the SSD optimizer

20210304_002.JPG

20210304_003.JPG

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33 minutes ago, Saphir said:

For the Archive SSD I set the folder placement for only a few folders but they are not placed to the Archice SSD.

I don't use the File Placement rules. So I cannot help you there from experience.

35 minutes ago, Saphir said:

Maybe it has a completly other reason because the SSDs are empty: Duplication. If I have enabled the duplication and have only 1 SSD as cache is that working? I thought DrivePool is moving the duplikated files to the archiv and let the main files in the cache till it is emptied. Maybe I'm wrong and I need two SSD in the cache. Maybe the Archive SSD has the same problem and can't make a dublication on an Archive HDD but this would be strange.

I do not completely understand what you are asking. If you have both your SSDs designated as "SSD" in the SSD Optimizer panel, then I would suspect that both SSDs are being flushed when it hits your trigger point.

In the DrivePool SSD Optimizer, you can designate your SSD as either to be treated as a SSD or Archive drive. If you have your second SSD designated as an Archive drive, then it should not flush the data. Also, in case you did not know, you can designate an ordinary HDD as a SSD drive for the purpose of the SSD Optimizer. It will not make that HDD any faster, but DrivePool will treat that HDD as a SSD drive for the purpose of write caching.

As to duplication, here is what I see happening on my system. I only have one SSD for write cache, so if I write to a folder with duplication - and if I have real time duplication set - I see one copy going to my SSD cache and a second copy going directly to an Archive drive. If I had two SSDs for write cache, I think DrivePool would cache a copy of the file on each SSD and then flush that data later when it hits the trigger point.

I hope that explanation helps. I suspect we may have a communication problem due to the language differences as I see you are running a German version of DrivePool. But I hope we can work out an answer for you.

Also, if you are not getting the answers you need from me, maybe someone like the moderator @Shane might be helpful. He knows a lot about DrivePool and has answered many of my questions. There is also a contact form for support from the DrivePool team/programmers. I have been using DrivePool for less than 1 year, and it works great for me, but I don't pretend to know everything about the program.

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Thanks for your help.

It seems we have realy a bit of an language problem. 

I'm using drivepool now since a few yours but never used folder placement or SSD Optimizer before. Good do read that the SSD Cache is working. For me it wasn't working at all. I will test a bit and write to the support.

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File Placement will override the SSD Optimizer unless "File placement rules respect real-time file placement limits set by the balancing plug-ins" is checked in the Balancing menu's Settings tab.

E.g. if you have File Placement saying "all new files go on drives X, Y and Z" and SSD Optimizer saying "all new files go on drives A and B" then all new files will go on X, Y and Z unless the above setting is checked.

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Thanks Shane for your answer and help.

My settings you can the in the screenshot. If I understood you right it should be the correct way, that the "file placement rules" are not override the the SSD Optimizer. What I don't undertand is why my SSD in the archive (with file placement to it and not set in the optimizer as SSD) and the Cache SSD (set as SSD in the optimizer) don't get new files which should be there. They remained empty.

For A few minutes I was writing a support ticket because I can't find anythink in the documentation and in the forum what makes my questions clear. Can you help me with that ticket?

20210305_001.JPG

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Hmm. Reviewing your earlier posts, if you're using duplication but have only one drive set as a "SSD" cache then that could be confusing DrivePool.

If not... can you post a screenshot of your Balancers tab showing the priority and settings of your SSD Optimizer, and of your File Placement tab showing the Rules sub-tab?

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Yes I was only setting one drive as SSD cache. In the moment I have changed my setting to find out what is working how with DrivePool. Maybe I write my questions here too and you can have a look.

 

My questions:

1. Is the duplication working with having one SSD-drive set for cache. Is DrivePool writing the files to the cache SSD-drive and a duplication to the HDDs in the Archive?

2. How is the reading of this files, is DrivePool reading the files on the cache SSD-drive first if they are still there or will the duplication on the HDD slow it down?

3. Would it be better to have two SSD enabled in the SSD Optimizer as SSDs to get for the files which are actually in the cach the duplication in the cache too, would this work?

4. If I use two SSDs in the cache how do I set them? Together in a subpool? Or adding them simple to the main pool and set them both as SSD?

5. Would it maybe a better solution to get one SSD in the pool and not enable it as SSD-drive in the "SSD Optimizer" to use it as archive with file placement rules for my most used files?

6. If I try it like in 5. how is it with the duplication would DrivePool read the files from the fast SSD or the slower HDD? Maybe the slow HDD makes the SSD slow too?

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7 hours ago, Saphir said:

My questions:

1. Is the duplication working with having one SSD-drive set for cache. Is DrivePool writing the files to the cache SSD-drive and a duplication to the HDDs in the Archive?

I only have 1 SSD in my DrivePool. If I write a file to a folder with duplication, I see one copy going into the SSD cache and the other copy going into the archive HDD pool. In the pool case, DrivePool defaults to sending the second file to the archive HDD that has the most free space. 

7 hours ago, Saphir said:

2. How is the reading of this files, is DrivePool reading the files on the cache SSD-drive first if they are still there or will the duplication on the HDD slow it down?

I have Read Striping turned on DrivePool. If I read a file from a folder with duplication set, what I see is that DrivePool will read from both the SSD cache (if the file is still in the cache) and also read the copy in the archive HDD. For the most part, DrivePool pulls the file data from the faster SSD cache and very little from the archive HDD. So, the archive HDD does not slow down your file transfer in that case. If both copies of the duplicated file are residing in the archive pool HDDs, then DrivePool seems to pull from both drives about equal, almost doubling the speed of a single HDD. You can see this take place if you expand the Performance arrow in DrivePool and watch the Disk Performance window for the transfers.

7 hours ago, Saphir said:

3. Would it be better to have two SSD enabled in the SSD Optimizer as SSDs to get for the files which are actually in the cach the duplication in the cache too, would this work?

I know with one SSD cache that DrivePool will pull the file data as fast as it can from the SSD. I don't know if it would pull file data from both SSDs with Read Striping and double the speed of your single SSD. I say this because there are also many other bottlenecks on a computer system and you might run up against a problem with bandwidth on a file transfer. In theory, if your SSD's are both rated at 480 MB/s, will DrivePool Read Striping pull the file data down at 960 MB/s, or will you see some bottleneck related to bandwidth at that point? I don't know because I only have one SSD, and most of my data is transferred over a home network ethernet which tops out at about 120 MB/s.

7 hours ago, Saphir said:

4. If I use two SSDs in the cache how do I set them? Together in a subpool? Or adding them simple to the main pool and set them both as SSD?

From what I have read, if you use Folder Duplication and want to maximize your speed, then you would set both your SSDs to the main pool and designate them as SSD in the SSD Optimizer.

7 hours ago, Saphir said:

5. Would it maybe a better solution to get one SSD in the pool and not enable it as SSD-drive in the "SSD Optimizer" to use it as archive with file placement rules for my most used files?

I don't use File Placement rules, so I don't know the exact answer. I still think you might be better off just using a portion of the SSD for direct file storage placement if your goal is to keep the files on that specific SSD for faster access. DrivePool allows you to use any drive as both a normal system drive and as a pool drive for DrivePool.

I also know that without File Placement rules set on my DrivePool, that it might move files around on the drives in the pool when it does maintenance for balancing optimization, for example. 

7 hours ago, Saphir said:

6. If I try it like in 5. how is it with the duplication would DrivePool read the files from the fast SSD or the slower HDD? Maybe the slow HDD makes the SSD slow too?

Again, what I see on my DrivePool with only one SSD is that DrivePool with Read Striping reads data as fast as it can from both drives and sends the data out. Most of the data therefore is pulled from the SSD and very little from my HDD. I don't see the HDD slowing down the SSD in any way in my transfers.

I am trying to be very careful to state what I see on my system with DrivePool, because your setup may be completely different from mine. I use DrivePool as my media storage server and most of my file transfers take place over my home network.

If I transfer a media file from a USB 2.0 HDD, via my laptop computer in the kitchen, over a 1 Gbit ethernet, into my DrivePool home media server with 1 SSD cache and 18 archive drives attached via USB 3.0, then my top speed on that transfer is about 30 MB/s, which is all the faster my laptop can pull data from a USB 2.0 HDD. Obviously, my DrivePool SSD cache is much faster than my transfer rate in that scenario.

If I transfer that same media file from the system HDD in my server computer, I reach a top speed of about 120 MB/s which is the read speed of the system HDD.

If I transfer that same media file from the SSD cache in DrivePool and make another copy to DrivePool (back into cache), then it will copy the file at about 480 MB/s which is the speed of my SSD.

So, you can see, that I might get transfer rates anywhere between 30 MB/s and 480 MB/s depending on the slowest device used. In none of those cases on my system is DrivePool itself slowing down anything.

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12 hours ago, Shane said:

Hmm. Reviewing your earlier posts, if you're using duplication but have only one drive set as a "SSD" cache then that could be confusing DrivePool.

Well, I only have one SSD and what I see happening is that one copy goes into the SSD cache and another copy goes directly into the archive HDD pool. I can watch this process play out in the Performance>Disk Performance window. The copy being sent to the SSD cache finishes first, as expected, and the second copy going to the archive HDD finishes up a little bit later - obviously depending on the file transfer size.

I have never seen any problems with DrivePool using only one SSD when writing to a duplicate folder. It works for me.

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@gtaus I was replying to Saphir, and meant "confusing DrivePool" in relation to a combination where SSD Optimizer and File Placement have conflicting rules as to where a new file should go when only one drive is marked as a SSD and duplication is enabled; as you note, you aren't using File Placement.

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@Shane Can you change the title of this thread in "DrivePool and SSD combinations" I think that would fix better to the subject, thanks.

Not needed anymore. With holfing the right mouse button on the title I was able to change it by myself. Didn't see that feature before and found it now by chance.

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16 hours ago, Saphir said:

The nice think is DrivePool is working how I thought it should be working :-)

Good to hear. DrivePool has advantages over other pool systems, and once you get it tweaked to what you need, it does not need much intervention afterwards. 

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