Jump to content

  • Log in with Twitter Log in with Windows Live Log In with Google      Sign In   
  • Create Account

Photo

Refs and storage spaces


  • Please log in to reply
37 replies to this topic

#21 Christopher (Drashna)

Christopher (Drashna)

    Customer and Technical Support

  • Administrators
  • 8,208 posts
  • LocationSan Diego, CA, USA

Posted 12 January 2016 - 06:54 AM

@Lee:

 

The biggest issues with ReFS right now are performance, and support. 

 

The biggest feature of ReFS is the integrity (error detection) aspect of the file system. The problem is that there is a huge write penalty for doing so, because the OS (and therefore) the CPU must run calculations for each sector/cluster written.  If you take a look at some of the benchmarks, there is a HUGE penalty here (I've seen as low as ~30% of the normal speed).   
However, this feature can be turned off, but you lose that detection issue. There are some other improvements that still make ReFS worth using, though. 

 

As for support, it doesn't support a lot of the file system features that some programs expect.

The 2012 version removed Alternate Data Streams (which makes that version usable for us, without a drastic rewrite), but was re-added in the 2012R2 version (because of MS SQL, actually.... oops). 

 

But compression, file encryption, hard links extended attributes and QUOTAS are not supported on ReFS.  That last one is a big thing, especially for enterprises.  Though dropping support for hard links is great for us, as we can't support that on the Pool anyways. 

 

The biggest issue IMO, though, is that there is a underwhelming number of recovery tools for ReFS. Especially consumer based recovery tools.

 

If you want a good read, a lot of this is covered on Wikipedia:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ReFS

Including other issues, and pro and cons. 


  • Ginoliggime and vapedrib like this

Christopher Courtney

aka "Drashna"

Microsoft MVP for Windows Home Server 2009-2012

Lead Moderator for We Got Served

Moderator for Home Server Show

 

This is my server

 

Lots of "Other" data on your pool? Read about what it is here.


#22 lee1978

lee1978

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 199 posts

Posted 12 January 2016 - 07:10 AM

Hi Chris

My pool has been all refs now for 2 day's I am not seeing any performance hit infact I don't see any difference at all everything is working exactly the same even with ss there is also the option to optimise the pool in ss which is the same as rebalance I think it's had a lot of feedback and there adding new features and improvements every update.

#23 Christopher (Drashna)

Christopher (Drashna)

    Customer and Technical Support

  • Administrators
  • 8,208 posts
  • LocationSan Diego, CA, USA

Posted 12 January 2016 - 07:45 AM

Well, that definitely depends on the setup, and config.  But if you reformatted with NTFS, or disabled the integrity streams, you will most likely see a difference in performance. 

 

 

As for the rebalancing, that's only in Server 2016 as far as I'm aware, or under certain circumstances (such as adding additional disks). 
But then again, it's been a long while since i've used Storage Spaces.


Christopher Courtney

aka "Drashna"

Microsoft MVP for Windows Home Server 2009-2012

Lead Moderator for We Got Served

Moderator for Home Server Show

 

This is my server

 

Lots of "Other" data on your pool? Read about what it is here.


#24 jmone

jmone

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 113 posts

Posted 12 January 2016 - 08:44 PM

I think we are mixing terms of what bit does what,

- ReFS : Just a better disk format in terms of reliability in writing and managing files than NTFS.

- ReFS and Storage Spaces : Give the ability to pool disks as Simple, Mirror, or Parity Storage Spaces.  Mirror or Parity offers background scrubbing and error correction.  Parity Storage Spaces is described by MS for "where you want to maximise capacity and you're OK with lower write performance" 

 

For me DP on ReFS is the better soln as, I just want a "Simple" pool (as I backup to another pool), and

- While I'd like the background scrubbing and error correction, I'm not willing to lose 50% of my HDD space if using SS Mirror or the performance hit if using SS Parity on my main pool but I would consider using SS Parity on my Server 2012R2 Backup Pool.

- DP offers much finer level of control regarding how pools work than SS.  

- I look forward to "official" ReFS support in Drive Pool before I'd recommend the combination generally.

 

Thanks

Nathan


  • Christopher (Drashna) likes this

#25 BinaryData

BinaryData

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 18 posts

Posted 06 February 2016 - 07:16 PM

After reading all of this, I'm quite disappointed. I couldn't get Storage Spaces to create a pool with my Western Digital RED NAS 3TB Drives. I couldn't remember the error off the top of my head, but TechNews had 0 support on it, and said that it may not support the drives at all. Thus why I'm using StableBit on NTFS. Also, I couldn't format as ReFS on Server 2012 R2, the option didn't even appear.

 

As for 8TB drives, hah. 10TB was just announced, and my company LOVES to be the Guinea Pig for new hardware. I won't release the name due to not knowing you guys. We recently purchased a few new Dell FX2s, and I hate the things. We also just swapped out 4x 36 Bay Supermicro's 8TB drives for 10TB ones. According to the Storage Team, they are happy. R/W is a little slower, however not enough to turn back.

 

My biggest concern about DP is redundancy. I'm new to the storage game, as I'm just a Data Center Tech, I don't get much experience with RAID or anything. I just swap parts out. My largest pool will be about 27TB of space. About 3 - 10TB will be used, and the rest will be expansion. I looked into Storage Pools because it was free (Sorry Alex!), however when I google'd about it, most of the articles were 3+ Years old, and I found no recent information.

 

 

@ Alex / Chris - You guys should allow a cache configured drive, i.e SATA/PCI-E Sata drives as the cache point. It would speed up media serving.



#26 Christopher (Drashna)

Christopher (Drashna)

    Customer and Technical Support

  • Administrators
  • 8,208 posts
  • LocationSan Diego, CA, USA

Posted 06 February 2016 - 10:21 PM

After reading all of this, I'm quite disappointed. I couldn't get Storage Spaces to create a pool with my Western Digital RED NAS 3TB Drives. I couldn't remember the error off the top of my head, but TechNews had 0 support on it, and said that it may not support the drives at all. Thus why I'm using StableBit on NTFS. Also, I couldn't format as ReFS on Server 2012 R2, the option didn't even appear.

 

As for 8TB drives, hah. 10TB was just announced, and my company LOVES to be the Guinea Pig for new hardware. I won't release the name due to not knowing you guys. We recently purchased a few new Dell FX2s, and I hate the things. We also just swapped out 4x 36 Bay Supermicro's 8TB drives for 10TB ones. According to the Storage Team, they are happy. R/W is a little slower, however not enough to turn back.

 

My biggest concern about DP is redundancy. I'm new to the storage game, as I'm just a Data Center Tech, I don't get much experience with RAID or anything. I just swap parts out. My largest pool will be about 27TB of space. About 3 - 10TB will be used, and the rest will be expansion. I looked into Storage Pools because it was free (Sorry Alex!), however when I google'd about it, most of the articles were 3+ Years old, and I found no recent information.

 

 

@ Alex / Chris - You guys should allow a cache configured drive, i.e SATA/PCI-E Sata drives as the cache point. It would speed up media serving.

 

Well, for Storage Spaces, not really a lot has changed. The 2012R2 version didn't really bring any improvements to it, IIRC.

And that's very odd that you had issues with the RED drives. 

 

As for cache, well, if you have duplication (redundancy) enabled in StableBit DrivePool, it does do read striping (no, this isn't as fast as it would be with RAID, but we do a number of optimizations, based on the system:

http://stablebit.com...ormance Options

 

Additionally, we do have the "SSD Optimizer" that works as a write cache. 

https://stablebit.co...ivePool/Plugins

 

But as for a read cache? The problem is that it would still have to read from the hard drives, and that will still slow it down, and would really make it take longer. 

 

 

And as for redundancy, the term we use is "duplication", specifically.  And this can be configured "globally", and it can be configured per folder.  Additionally, you can set it higher than the default "x2" duplication, for stuff that you want well protected.

http://stablebit.com...File Protection


Christopher Courtney

aka "Drashna"

Microsoft MVP for Windows Home Server 2009-2012

Lead Moderator for We Got Served

Moderator for Home Server Show

 

This is my server

 

Lots of "Other" data on your pool? Read about what it is here.


#27 BinaryData

BinaryData

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 18 posts

Posted 07 February 2016 - 12:18 AM

Well, for Storage Spaces, not really a lot has changed. The 2012R2 version didn't really bring any improvements to it, IIRC.

And that's very odd that you had issues with the RED drives. 

 

As for cache, well, if you have duplication (redundancy) enabled in StableBit DrivePool, it does do read striping (no, this isn't as fast as it would be with RAID, but we do a number of optimizations, based on the system:

http://stablebit.com...ormance Options

 

Additionally, we do have the "SSD Optimizer" that works as a write cache. 

https://stablebit.co...ivePool/Plugins

 

But as for a read cache? The problem is that it would still have to read from the hard drives, and that will still slow it down, and would really make it take longer. 

 

 

And as for redundancy, the term we use is "duplication", specifically.  And this can be configured "globally", and it can be configured per folder.  Additionally, you can set it higher than the default "x2" duplication, for stuff that you want well protected.

http://stablebit.com...File Protection

I've been reading this all on my cellphone, been out in the data hall installing PDUs. You know how annoying it is to use speech to text with noise cancellation. You say farm, it writs fart.

 

I was thinking the SSD Optimizer was for running multiple SSDs as a pool, I haven't had the time to fully dive into it. 

 

As for duplication, a lot of my stuff I don't mind losing, however my collection of 720p TV Shows / DVDs, I do mind that. It's not been easy collecting 10TB of stuff. Especially when I ripped about 95% of them all, that 5% is the latest series. My idea was to tag team the pools. Whatever is in J:/ gets automatically uploaded to the Amazon Cloud Service, thus creating a "backup", however I'm thinking it might be in the best interest to setup RAID6 using 3TB drives in an 8 Bay Norco. I'll refer to our PMs for help with that :D

 

Well, StableBit still rocks Storage Spaces. I don't know what happened, maybe you can tell me exactly what this means.

 

storage_pool.png



#28 Christopher (Drashna)

Christopher (Drashna)

    Customer and Technical Support

  • Administrators
  • 8,208 posts
  • LocationSan Diego, CA, USA

Posted 07 February 2016 - 06:55 AM

I've been reading this all on my cellphone, been out in the data hall installing PDUs. You know how annoying it is to use speech to text with noise cancellation. You say farm, it writs fart.

 

I was thinking the SSD Optimizer was for running multiple SSDs as a pool, I haven't had the time to fully dive into it. 

 

As for duplication, a lot of my stuff I don't mind losing, however my collection of 720p TV Shows / DVDs, I do mind that. It's not been easy collecting 10TB of stuff. Especially when I ripped about 95% of them all, that 5% is the latest series. My idea was to tag team the pools. Whatever is in J:/ gets automatically uploaded to the Amazon Cloud Service, thus creating a "backup", however I'm thinking it might be in the best interest to setup RAID6 using 3TB drives in an 8 Bay Norco. I'll refer to our PMs for help with that :D

 

Well, StableBit still rocks Storage Spaces. I don't know what happened, maybe you can tell me exactly what this means.

 

attachicon.gifstorage_pool.png

 

I've been reading this all on my cellphone, been out in the data hall installing PDUs. You know how annoying it is to use speech to text with noise cancellation. You say farm, it writs fart.

 

I was thinking the SSD Optimizer was for running multiple SSDs as a pool, I haven't had the time to fully dive into it. 

 

As for duplication, a lot of my stuff I don't mind losing, however my collection of 720p TV Shows / DVDs, I do mind that. It's not been easy collecting 10TB of stuff. Especially when I ripped about 95% of them all, that 5% is the latest series. My idea was to tag team the pools. Whatever is in J:/ gets automatically uploaded to the Amazon Cloud Service, thus creating a "backup", however I'm thinking it might be in the best interest to setup RAID6 using 3TB drives in an 8 Bay Norco. I'll refer to our PMs for help with that :D

 

Well, StableBit still rocks Storage Spaces. I don't know what happened, maybe you can tell me exactly what this means.

 

 

Reading a phone is a PITA! :)

 

And the SSD Optimizer (formerly "archive optimizer") was specifically to create a write cache using SSDs. 

Specifically, it uses the "Real time placement limiter" functionality to force writes to the "SSD" drives, and then later balances the files off of the "SSD" drives onto the "Archive" drives. 

So this definitely affects new files, but may not affect write speeds when modifying a file. 

 

 

As for the media collection, I completely understand. I've been there, and there are still things I'm finding that are missing. (movies mostly at this point). Duplication makes things easier. 

 

 

As for the Amazon Cloud Drive stuff, I'd say use StableBit CloudDrive, but the Amazon Cloud Drive provider part is not stable/reliable right now. If/when we can get it stable, that may be a viable option for you. :)

And yes, "offsite backup" of your data is a very good idea, especially in the case of disaster or theft.  

 

As for RAID, I've already replied about it, and .... I'm not a fan of parity, at all. And that's part of what drove me to Windows Home Server and Drive Extender, and then StableBit DrivePool. 

 

 

 

And as for Storage Space, no idea. But maybe a controller issue? I'd say check the Event Viewer and see what that says. 

But either way, very, very odd! 


Christopher Courtney

aka "Drashna"

Microsoft MVP for Windows Home Server 2009-2012

Lead Moderator for We Got Served

Moderator for Home Server Show

 

This is my server

 

Lots of "Other" data on your pool? Read about what it is here.


#29 jmone

jmone

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 113 posts

Posted 29 March 2016 - 08:05 AM

Just reporting back after a couple of months with 0 issues using ReFS on both my pools.


  • Atarres likes this

#30 Christopher (Drashna)

Christopher (Drashna)

    Customer and Technical Support

  • Administrators
  • 8,208 posts
  • LocationSan Diego, CA, USA

Posted 29 March 2016 - 08:06 PM

Just reporting back after a couple of months with 0 issues using ReFS on both my pools.

Thank you for the confirmation!

I've been using the ReFS on the "temp" pool I've been using and it hasn't any issues either. 

 

It sounds like there should be absolutely no issues with ReFS then.


  • Atarres likes this

Christopher Courtney

aka "Drashna"

Microsoft MVP for Windows Home Server 2009-2012

Lead Moderator for We Got Served

Moderator for Home Server Show

 

This is my server

 

Lots of "Other" data on your pool? Read about what it is here.


#31 Atarres

Atarres

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 17 posts

Posted 07 December 2016 - 12:04 AM

I think we are mixing terms of what bit does what,

- ReFS : Just a better disk format in terms of reliability in writing and managing files than NTFS.

- ReFS and Storage Spaces : Give the ability to pool disks as Simple, Mirror, or Parity Storage Spaces.  Mirror or Parity offers background scrubbing and error correction.  Parity Storage Spaces is described by MS for "where you want to maximise capacity and you're OK with lower write performance" 

 

For me DP on ReFS is the better soln as, I just want a "Simple" pool (as I backup to another pool), and

- While I'd like the background scrubbing and error correction, I'm not willing to lose 50% of my HDD space if using SS Mirror or the performance hit if using SS Parity on my main pool but I would consider using SS Parity on my Server 2012R2 Backup Pool.

- DP offers much finer level of control regarding how pools work than SS.  

- I look forward to "official" ReFS support in Drive Pool before I'd recommend the combination generally.

 

Thanks

Nathan

I have this setup. I had to boot into a WinPE setup and set up individually formatted REFS drives 7 of them @ 2TB each. No storage spaces. I installed DP on top of them, copied 270GB of data over to them and the performance was about 2x the speed I saw with the same hardware on Storage spaces. It also exceeded  a ZFS set up I had on the same hardware a while back as well. This combination has proven to be very fast. And with REFS as the underlying FS, my biggest concern is gone which is bitrot. 


  • Christopher (Drashna) likes this

#32 jmone

jmone

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 113 posts

Posted 21 April 2017 - 12:25 AM

So ReFS is now an native format option in Windows 10 (from build 15042).  I'm not sure however if it is ReFS v1, v2, v3 (or some other difference) as drives I format as ReFS in Win 10 can not be read in Win Sever 2012R2, they appear as RAW (but as always, those formatted in 2012R2 can be read in Win10).

 

I can not find out much on the details of the new ReFS in Win 10 option, but it is good it has gone main stream!



#33 lee1978

lee1978

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 199 posts

Posted 21 April 2017 - 05:45 AM

Hi Jmone

I did read that was the plan either a year or two ago from Microsoft I think they took there time maybe to give software developers time to work on the file system like yourself I have used refs for a while and been very happy with it I have two pools both indenticle one drivepool one using storage spaces and both run flawlessly I am just hoping Alex is going to find time soon to work on drive pool and add some new features especially full refs support.

#34 Christopher (Drashna)

Christopher (Drashna)

    Customer and Technical Support

  • Administrators
  • 8,208 posts
  • LocationSan Diego, CA, USA

Posted 21 April 2017 - 04:34 PM

So ReFS is now an native format option in Windows 10 (from build 15042).  I'm not sure however if it is ReFS v1, v2, v3 (or some other difference) as drives I format as ReFS in Win 10 can not be read in Win Sever 2012R2, they appear as RAW (but as always, those formatted in 2012R2 can be read in Win10).

 

I can not find out much on the details of the new ReFS in Win 10 option, but it is good it has gone main stream!

 

Can confirm about the "RAW" thing. And there doesn't appear a way to force backwards compatibility or to format as an older version of ReFS.   So if you use Windows 10, no down-grading... 

 

 

Hi Jmone

I did read that was the plan either a year or two ago from Microsoft I think they took there time maybe to give software developers time to work on the file system like yourself I have used refs for a while and been very happy with it I have two pools both indenticle one drivepool one using storage spaces and both run flawlessly I am just hoping Alex is going to find time soon to work on drive pool and add some new features especially full refs support.

 

It's planned, or at least requested.  But just remember, a lot of the features will require reverse engineering to implement. Which takes time.  

 

But I'm going to keep pushing for it, because it would be fantastic. 


Christopher Courtney

aka "Drashna"

Microsoft MVP for Windows Home Server 2009-2012

Lead Moderator for We Got Served

Moderator for Home Server Show

 

This is my server

 

Lots of "Other" data on your pool? Read about what it is here.


#35 jmone

jmone

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 113 posts

Posted 21 April 2017 - 10:14 PM

I "presume" Server 2016 uses the newer ReFS version (I've seen reports saying V2 and V3 so no idea what is "correct" and what the differences are).



#36 Christopher (Drashna)

Christopher (Drashna)

    Customer and Technical Support

  • Administrators
  • 8,208 posts
  • LocationSan Diego, CA, USA

Posted 22 April 2017 - 12:07 AM

I "presume" Server 2016 uses the newer ReFS version (I've seen reports saying V2 and V3 so no idea what is "correct" and what the differences are).

 

Nope.  At least not without an update.  The VM I have of 2016, it shows up as RAW. 

 

I suspect that this will be the case until the server gets it's version of the Creator's Update, or a cumulative update to patch this. 

 

As for the differences ..... it's impossible to tell without good documentation, or reverse engineering. 

 

That said, I've already alerted Alex to this, and it sounds like ReFS support is going to be at the top of the list (at least for Scanner, at first). 


  • jmone likes this

Christopher Courtney

aka "Drashna"

Microsoft MVP for Windows Home Server 2009-2012

Lead Moderator for We Got Served

Moderator for Home Server Show

 

This is my server

 

Lots of "Other" data on your pool? Read about what it is here.


#37 jmone

jmone

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 113 posts

Posted 22 April 2017 - 12:57 AM

Good news on ReFS Support!... I love this format for my pools, with 0 issues to date.  It will be interesting to see when/if the Server Line gets the same ReFS version support as Windows 10 (esp as it has been out for a couple of months) and what all the V1/2/3 differences are.  I can not find any comparison table but only this presentation on V2 http://www.snia.org/...ton_ReFS_v2.pdf



#38 Christopher (Drashna)

Christopher (Drashna)

    Customer and Technical Support

  • Administrators
  • 8,208 posts
  • LocationSan Diego, CA, USA

Posted 22 April 2017 - 09:53 PM

Agreed. 

 

As for the different versions, that's hard to tell.  It's not very clear and not well documented....


Christopher Courtney

aka "Drashna"

Microsoft MVP for Windows Home Server 2009-2012

Lead Moderator for We Got Served

Moderator for Home Server Show

 

This is my server

 

Lots of "Other" data on your pool? Read about what it is here.





0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users